Can I have more than one Guru?

Genuine Gurus are rare these days, so this question shouldn’t arise, but for what its worth, these are some insights by Sri Aurobindo and the Mother on the question of multiple Gurus.  The gist of the matter seems to be that as long as you don’t feel strongly drawn to any particular sage, it is permissible to draw inspiration (through reading and interaction) from multiple sages.  But once you get initiated by a particular Guru, you must stick to that Guru, otherwise the spiritual energies of different Gurus can interfere to create a frightful mess within your consciousness.  Furthermore, if you have reached the apex with one particular Guru, you can certainly look for another.  The cases of Kapali Sastry and M.P.Pandit can be cited in support of this clause; they were initially disciples of Ramana Maharshi but later choose Sri Aurobindo and the Mother as their Guru.

Note: These remarks apply only to Gurus who give personal initiation and individual guidance, as was typical in the past.  These days, we see Gurus who offer Yoga courses through a network of trained teachers.  My guess is that switching between  courses offered by different Gurus should not cause any problems.  It depends on the methods being practiced.

Dilipkumar Roy(1897-1980) was a talented musician who joined the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in 1928.  Like most over-eager neophytes, Dilip wanted others to accept his Guru as their own.  He sought to pressurize Sri Krishnaprem (Ronald Henry Nixon) who lived near Almora with his Guru, Yashoda Ma, to come to Pondicherry and meet Sri Aurobindo.  The following anecdote is from Dilip’s book “Sri Aurobindo came to me“:

Personally, I came to profit most from the mystic wisdom of two persons I had come to know intimately through the love and admiration they inspired in me from the first: to wit, Sri Aurobindo and Sri Krishnaprem. When I say this I do not, of course, include the great saints and sages of the past who had won me over to their light long before I met these two great personalities. I only stress hereby the sense of blessedness that accrues to us when we have actually communed with the spiritual figures we have adored. This was borne home to me more and more as I grew to love them more and more, because, among other things, each in turn buttressed as it were my love for the other. But that is not the whole story; for I must add here that I felt not only refreshed but fortified by Krishnaprem’s bowing down to Sri Aurobindo. Happily, I was instrumental in bringing them into direct contact again and again through the letters they went on writing to me which, by and large, served as the bridge between them ever since I had built it accidentally to draw them closer to each other, even though there could be no question of Krishnaprem’s accepting Sri Aurobindo as his Guru. In fact, once, from Almora, he wrote to me, years ago, in reply to my invitation, that although he had the deepest reverence for Sri Aurobindo, he did not feel like coming to Pondicherry since he could get all the inspiration he needed from his own Guru. A little hurt by this, I went to the Mother with his letter. To my surprise, she not only supported him but actually praised him to the skies and told me: “That is the ideal attitude for any aspirant who has already accepted a Guru: to wit, to stick to him, refusing to turn to any other Master for Guidance.”  Sri Aurobindo also wrote to me when Krishnaprem contended that all true Gurus were the same.

“All true Gurus are the same, the one Guru, all are the one Divine. That is a fundamental and universal Truth which justifies Krishnaprem’s statement. But there is also a truth of difference; the Divine dwells in different personalities with different minds, teachings and influences so that He may lead different disciples with their special need, character and destiny by different ways to the realisation: that justifies Krishnaprem’s own action. Because all Gurus are the same Divine, it does not follow that the disciple does well if he leaves the one meant for him to follow another. Fidelity to the Guru is demanded of every disciple, according to Indian tradition. Krishnaprem has that fidelity; he feels the spiritual tie holding him to his Guru in life and even after her departure; that is why he cannot think of going to someone else. ‘All are the same’ is a spiritual truth, but you cannot convert it indiscriminately into action; you cannot deal with all persons in the same way because they are the one Brahman: if one did, the result, pragmatically, would be an awful mess. You yourself have always in your heart laid stress on the principle of fidelity; Krishnaprem does the same so you ought to find it easy to understand his standpoint. It is a rigid mental logic that makes the difficulty, but in spiritual matters mental logic easily blunders; intuition, faith and a plastic spiritual reason are here the only guides.” [1]

These are two conversations on this topic.   They are self-explanatory.

Purani: Dr. Kantilal has two questions to ask. First, can one have more than one Guru? Dattatreya had about twenty Gurus, he says, and profited by each. From a bird he learnt something, from a butcher something else and so on.

Sri Aurobindo: Such Gurus one can have even twenty thousand of. Why only twenty?

Purani: His second question is: Can’t one make spiritual progress by seeing the Divine in the Gurus?

Sri Aurobindo: The Divine is in everybody. So he can see the Divine in all. Why only in the Gurus?

Nirodbaran: But in the spiritual teachers one can feel the Divine more easily because they have realised Him.

Sri Aurobindo: That does not mean that the Divine is not in everybody. If one actually sees the Divine, it is a different matter. But if it is a question of thinking, one can think as well that the Divine is in all.

Purani:  He asks if one can’t have more than one Guru and if it is disloyal to change one’s Guru.

Sri Aurobindo: If one wants to get somewhere, it is better to have one Guru and stick to him. Only under exceptional circumstances can the Guru be changed.

Purani: He says he has visited many Gurus but nobody has satisfied him.

Sri Aurobindo: That is not the fault of the Gurus. If he goes on changing like that, he will get nowhere. Moreover, there will be a play of contrary influences.

Champaklal: But if one visits spiritual people one can get some help on the spiritual path. They say that Satsang (company of holy people) has a great value in life.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, one can get some influence, but that is for ordinary people who want some good influence to help them in their lives, not for those who want to do Yoga. Besides, even then there may be a conflict of influences -different people’s good influences may also conflict.

Purani:  What one has gained from one may go counter to what one gets from another. Now I understand why you asked Dr. Kantilal to quiet his mind. His mind seems to be roaming about from place to place. (Sri Aurobindo was smiling at this. ) [2]

Another recorded conversation goes as follows:

Purani: There’s a lady who used to feel your presence in her own home, just as at Darshan; but last time on her way home from here saw Ramana Maharshi and then lost that feeling.

Sri Aurobindo: Naturally.

Purani: At first she couldn’t detect the reason why. Then she suspected the cause and I told her the Mother didn’t approve of mixing up things. Now she thinks it must have been due to that visit.

Sri Aurobindo: That was another influence. Besides, if Maharshi had been alone, it would have been different. But there are always other people around.

Nirodbaran: But the purpose is the same – seeking for spirituality—and it is in the same line.

Sri Aurobindo: That is not the question. (After some time) Purani received something from Lele.

Purani: Oh yes, I know to my cost. He gave me a terrible fever just when I was in the peak of health; the fever left me only after I received a letter from here. My encounter with another Yogi gave me vomiting, giddiness, etc. Otherwise I got nothing from them.

Sri Aurobindo (smiling): But Lele did give you something after all.

Purani: Yes-but I didn’t go to him again.  Another friend after coming here asked me if he should go to see some Yogi. I told him he should not. He replied, “What’s the harm? It is the same spirituality.” I explained, “Maybe, but there are different spiritual energies and one may oppose another.”

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so.

Purani: But the man didn’t believe me. And he has paid the penalty for five years. He still hasn’t come here again! [3].

Exceptions have to be made for exceptional souls, such as Vasistha Ganapati Muni (aka Nayana) (1878-1936) who was a disciple of Ramana Maharshi.  On the Mother’s invitation, he came and stayed in the Sri Aurobindo Ashram for a fortnight.  These are some brief details of his stay as recorded by an Ashram inmate:

Aug 13, 1928: Recently S. Doraiswamy gave a copy of Uma Sahasram (a composition by Ganapati Muni) for Sri Aurobindo’s perusal who seemed to have deeply appreciated it. And the Mother expressed on her own: “If Ganapati Sastri is inclined to come for the August 15th Darshan he is welcome.” It was communicated to Nayana at Tiruvanamalai.   Sri Ramana (Maharshi) seems to have said ‘When this suggestion by the Mother came unsought by Nayana, it must be a Daiva Sankalpam(Divine Will).’

Aug 15, 1928: Sri Aurobindo’s birthday celebration on the Ashram — and all of us had the privilege of Darshan of the Mother and Sri Aurobindo. Nayana, though pessimistic at first, after he had the actual Darshan, expressed “O, divya murtulu—O, Divine Personalities!” so much so, he stayed on till September 1st.

Aug 16, 1928: Nayana’s interview with the Mother for 30 minutes. They meditated together; Nayana felt spiritual current passing into him from all directions. Later on the Mother said to S. Doraiswamy: “He is the one man who immediately entered into my spiritual consciousness and stuck to it to the end.”

Aug 18, 1928: Nayana’s second interview with the Mother for 45 minutes. He recited verses composed on the Mother.  Talked of pre­sent Avatara.  The Mother got into trance. Nayana perceived light passing through her toe and then a glowing halo around her entire being, the whole atmosphere surcharged with divine current [4].

You can read more about Vasistha Ganapati Muni (Nayana) here

References

  1. Dilip Kumar Roy, Sri Aurobindo came to me, pp 320-321.
  2. Nirodbaran, Talks With Sri Aurobindo, Vol 1, p 432, 9 February 1940.
  3. Nirodbaran, Talks With Sri Aurobindo, Vol 1, p 272, 30 November 1939.
  4. K. Venkatraman.  My Diary-leaves, p 363.

Related Posts

  1. Receiving guidance from Masters of a bygone age
  2. How does a Guru act?
  3. Significance of places of worship, relics and prayer rooms
  4. Does dying in holy cities like Varanasi bring salvation?
  5. Why read Sri Aurobindo’s books?
  6. Why does Yoga give you a “high”?
  7. Guidance by random-book opening
  8. The Mother Mirra Alfassa as a Guru
  9. Anandamayi Ma as the Guru
  10. How to read holy books
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70 thoughts on “Can I have more than one Guru?

  1. Sandeep Post author

    The following letter is an instance where Sri Aurobindo declined to be a Guru to someone who was practicing Yoga along the Tantric path:

    “Sri Aurobindo cannot undertake to guide you as your Guru, for the reason that he takes as disciples only those who follow his special path of yoga; your experiences follow a different line. In his yoga there may be an occasional current in the spine as in other nerve channels or different parts of the body, but no awakening of the Kundalini in this particular and powerful fashion. There is only a quiet uprising of the consciousness from the lower centres to join the spiritual consciousness above and a descent of the Divine Force from above which does its own work in the mind and body – the manner and stages varying in each sadhak. A perfect confidence in the Divine Mother and a vigilance to repel all wrong suggestions and influences is the main law of this yoga. Your opening having once been so powerful on the more usual Tantric lines (even without your own will intervening), it is hardly probable that it could now change easily to other lines – any such effort might create a serious disturbance. In speaking of a competent Guru Sri Aurobindo meant one who had himself practised this opening of the centres and become siddha in that line of yoga. It should not be impossible to find one – when one has the call for the Guru, the Guru sooner or later comes. Meanwhile to put away fear and have confidence in the Divine working is indispensable – but no effort should be made to force the pace by concentrated meditation unless you have a guide whom you can trust – a clear guidance from within or a guide from without. The inspiration about the Ida nadi and the subsequent working of the Shakti show that there was an intervention at a critical moment and that the call to it whenever needed is likely to be effective.”

    (Sri Aurobindo. Letters on Yoga, SABCL vol. 24, p 1148)

    Reply
  2. mike

    Yeah, l think that letter might have been to Gopi Krishna who had a volcanic awaking of the kundalini. l believe Gopi Krishna had been meditating on a pink lotus at the the top of his head and SA told him this this was a sure invitation for kundalini to rise.
    l’ve been to other guru’s and l’ve also felt their influence, but ultimately l’m always dragged back to SA and Mother. l’ve never really found anyone who can compare with SA and Mother [not that l’m really qualified to know]. Even though l’m i’ve been in the west for most of my life, l’ve always felt their influence in my life more than any other guru. And if we believe [as l do] that the Supramental Yoga is the Highest why would we settle for anything less. Although, it looks like we have to be chosen for it [never liked that word much, but still…] – Probably done before we are born.
    l think the biggest danger might be in following certain guru’s who claim to be carrying on SA and Mother’s yoga, like M.Meera and even Sai Baba etc…

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      Mike:Yeah, l think that letter might have been to Gopi Krishna who had a volcanic awaking of the kundalini. l believe Gopi Krishna had been meditating on a pink lotus at the the top of his head and SA told him this this was a sure invitation for kundalini to rise.

      I was thinking the same – it must be Gopi Krishna. In his book Living with Kundalini, he says that after a botched Kundalini awakening, he wrote a renowned Guru in India asking for advice.

      Reply
  3. Sandeep Post author

    Disciple: Last night, at three in the morning, sleepy, exasperated, I called you. A few seconds later, three times, I felt a strong force paralyzing me and trying to plunge me into unconsciousness. I struggled hard against it because I felt it as an adverse force which wanted to take away my subtle body. The third time, with one eye open I saw part of the dark blue robe of a tall person who was waiting to take me away; it seemed as if an emanation of X was at his side. How is it that after I had called you, Mother, I had this experience?

    Mother Mirra Alfassa: This is the disadvantage of placing oneself under the influence of several occult forces. In the past, one was recommended, not without reason, to choose one spiritual master and to take great care not to see any others, to avoid a mixture of influences, which has serious disadvantages. So-called modern wisdom, which springs from ignorance, is open to all kinds of influences which are sometimes contradictory, and the result is a great confusion. Now there is only one solution, to go beyond all human representations and approach the Supreme directly with the utmost sincerity you are capable of, and… await the result.

    (Collected Works of the Mother, vol. 15, p 26)

    Reply
  4. jyothi sanghvi

    Hello Sandeep,
    I am a shivyog sadhak got deeksha from my guru avdhoot baba shivanand and i have been practicing shivyog since last 1yr+. Later on i started watching vidoes of sadhguru jaggi vasudev and i liked his talks so much that i ended up watching all the videos on you tube. I also read most of the books of sadhguru.
    What i don’t understand is…i have my guru babaji then why do i burst into tears whenever i just see sadhguru’s photo or read something of him??? what is that pull towards him? I have not felt this kind for sri sri Ravi shankar guruji whom i have seen and touched his feet too nor did i feel for The mother and sri Aurobindo whose ashram i have visited so many times… so i was looking for something of having more than one guru! Here i read stick to one guru which i too strongly believe but i don’t understand the kind of experiences i have with sadhguru ? can u shed some light on this. thank you so much…jyothi…)))

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      Hi Jyothi,

      First off, you should treat my answer purely as a suggestion, because I cannot discern the intricacies of your consciousness nor do I know the capabilities of Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev or Avdhoot Baba Shivanand. In fact, this is the first time I have heard of the latter. India has seen a proliferation of Gurus in recent times and not all have the highest realization.

      why do i burst into tears whenever i just see sadhguru’s photo or read something of him

      Bursting into tears is not necessarily a sign of spiritual awakening. It can also be a sign of emotional weakness. There may be some vague characteristic in one particular Guru which heightens the emotional feeling. Its just like an irrational “crush” that people develop sometimes. Maybe he reminds you of your father or some other revered figure.

      A Guru should be able to kindle a diversity of other experiences : a feeling of wideness above the head, a radiating blissful warmth within the heart, a perception of heat throughout the body, etc. That is what you must look for in a Guru.

      In any case, as long as the Guru is not abusive or exploitative and the method that you are practicing works, you can defer the choice until you develop more insight into which Guru is right for you.

      Reply
    2. Anmol Jain

      Hello Jyothi,

      You had addressed the question to Sandeep and you have already got a reply from him but since I have myself experienced Sadhguru somewhat I thought I will add my bit, I hope you don’t mind. I have not met or seen avdhoot baba shivanand but have seen him on TV and heard about his course from a friend who had attended it. I believe he is a shiv bhakta. Sadhguru is also a self-declared Shiv bhakta and it is possible that his realization of Shiva, whatever it is, may be more complete than that of your babaji and it is that which makes you get attracted towards him. Shiva, I have read in Mother and Sri Aurobindo, is a formidable formidable God and if one someone has truly realized him (as Sadhguru appears to have) then obviously when you come under his influence such a reaction is likely because to realize a God like Shiva is no mean achievement. Secondly, leaving the Shiva part aside, Sadhguru has a powerful consciousness. Though I am a disciple of Sri Aurobindo I attended one lecture of his in which he conducted a meditation and as I opened myself to him I found something vibrating in my spine in a way which was much more concrete than it normally is (I believe it is some movement of the Kundalini), it was extraordinary, it was so thick and concrete that I was taken aback. Again when I did his inner engineering course as I looked at him my eyes would get fixed at him and for the next half hour I would not see anything but light all around him. So what I am saying is that he is a luminous being with a very powerful consciousness and that might be the reason for your reactions to him. If you are really serious about the question then you can write to Sadhguru (I am sure there must be some channel) or if you can get the chance go and see him and ask him the question directly (because generally in his lectures some questions are allowed by the audience at the end), may be he can give you the absolutely accurate answer.

      Reply
      1. Anmol

        Jyothi,
        Also I might just add to the previous comment. On the last day of the Inner Engineering course, imitating Swami Vivekananda, I asked Sadhguru “Have you seen God?”. He said “Does it matter whether I have seen or not, do you want to see?”. I said “Yes”. He said “Okay, then come to Coimbatore and if you don’t have the money then I will give you the money for the travel.” He is a very direct sort of person. He doesn’t mess around. I didn’t go to him because I am Sri Aurobindo’s slave and becoming more so as days go by but if you have no such problem you can go to his Ashram and become his disciple. He was born in 1957 so is 54 now. That is relatively young. Nobody can predict death but I think he will be around for at least 20 more years. That much time in the physical presence of the Guru on Earth should be enough to get a firm grounding in his path.

      2. Sandeep Post author

        If you get a chance, you should also ask Jaggi Vasudev about his wife Vijji (Vijayalakshmi)’s premature death in 1997. He quickly cremated her without informing her father T. S. Ganganna and then claimed she had attained MahaSamadhi. The father-in-law filed a case against him. If you search the web, you will find references to an Indian Express newspaper article dated October 12, 1997.

    3. Sandeep 2

      Dear Jyothi,
      I am a Shivyog Sadhak also i have been initiated Shambhavi Maha mudra from Isha. Been practicing quiet some time.
      I look at experience that after attending Shivyog, there are many of your chakras that were opened up and in most probable case, the anahata chakra (Heart Chakra) would have opened up or in other words the blockages could have been released during the initiation in Shivir. For the reason of tears flowing, it is just that while getting a feel of higher energies the heart chakra gets activated (for that matter which ever chakra has completely opened will be activate), wherein an un-conditional love is getting through your divine soul which results in external tears or happiness.
      Now what i mentioned could be one of the reason. There are many other possibilities like you could ask why it did not happen when you met other gurus. For this we may have to look at the past karma and what is the relation which is being carried now, which a clairvoyant guru or a person who is able to see at a higher dimension will be able to give explanation.
      Now i would personally say, please DO NOT ANALYSE any state of spiritual experience through our Intellect mind, this will take one NOWHERE. This is not like H2O to know how many atoms of hydrogen and oxygen are there. What we are trying to know is who we are and how is that we form a part of this creation and how we create. PLEASE ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE WHEN TEARS ARE FLOWING AND ACCEPT THE GRACE THAT YOU ARE GETTING FROM GURU.
      Earlier i was doing this analysis and reached now where.
      I hope we do not want run an IB for which guru is right and wrong. In our small Intellect mind, we will have such 100’s of questions coming but we are too small to analyse such answers. Even certain gurus would have done something which we feel wrong we cannot understand the reason for it. Its like this, we are in class 1 STD and our teacher who is a Phd does write some arithmetic on board which is beyond our understanding and we term the teacher is wrong after the class.
      If we getting fascinated by such things, we remain where ever we are and our objective of Moksha will be a fantasy.

      Just look at what you want and take all good things that comes remain undisturbed by negative thoughts, which ever guru you are following, have 100% faith and devotion, merge with guru and things will happen of itself.

      If one have a strong desire of seeking god it will direct one to a correct path / guru. Its all upto our desire and intensity of urge. “Tum chahete kya ho”

      Om Nama Shivay

      This is Sandeep 2, “2” as i see there is already a Sandeep in the below resonses.

      Reply
    4. Sandeep Post author

      Jyothi : i have my guru babaji then why do i burst into tears whenever i just see sadhguru’s photo or read something of him?

      Found a corresponding dialogue in Sri Aurobindo’s conversations with disciples

      Nirodbaran: The Princess of Gauripur, whenever she looks at the Mother, finds tears flowing from her eyes. She can’t look at The Mother!

      Sri Aurobindo (smiling): She can look at her but can’t see her.

      Nirodbaran: She doesn’t know why the tears come. She can’t analyse her feelings.

      Sri Aurobindo: They are psychic tears. Her psychic being is behind the veil but sufficiently near the surface.

      Nirodbaran: She says she is seeking refuge, inner refuge.

      Sri Aurobindo: Of course.

      (Nirodbaran, Talks with Sri Aurobindo, vol 1, p 492, 26 FEBRUARY 1940)

      Reply
  5. Mike

    “Bursting into tears is not necessarily a sign of spiritual awakening. It can also be a sign of emotional weakness. There may be some vague characteristic in one particular Guru which heightens the emotional feeling. Its just like an irrational “crush” that people develop sometimes. Maybe he reminds you of your father or some other revered figure”

    Yes, l found out myself that there is a great difference between emotionalweeping and Psychic weeping.
    Jyothi, there could be many reasons you burst into tears, though l’m certainly no expert. Perhaps it’s a past-life connection with this Sadguru. Perhaps he has a strong vital influence on people. A guru from the lntermediate zone level would still be more powerful then the ordinary man or woman and might have many occult powers or occult helpers. I remember a clairvoyant going to see sai baba once. She was seated in the crowd and suddenly saw two little beings perched on his shoulders. They saw her and she was knocked back by some force, because they weren’t too pleased at being spotted. Anyway, it reminds me of a remark by Mother about miracles. She said you don’t need Divine Power to create a miracle – makes me wonder if She was referring to sai baba, in fact.
    Anmol, if your a disciple of SA l think it might be unhealthy to have anything to do with this sadguru if he’s arousing your kundalini. As you probably know, Sri Aurobindo uses a totally different Kundalini method.

    Reply
    1. Anmol

      Thanks Mike. Yeah, I did do the IE course and had that experience of the kundalini being aroused but as I mentioned in my post since I felt there was too much difference between the atmospheres of sjv and Sri Aurobindo I completely cut off from sjv. Inspite of spending rupees 5500 (which in India is not cheap by any means) to do the course of just 2 days and 3 hours and learning the technique I didn’t do it more than just a couple of times as I thought opening to sjv will lead me away from Sri Aurobindo. My soul knows that Sri Aurobindo and Mother are the Supreme and his Shakti (pardon this devotional outpouring on a blog like this) and therefore to it there is no question of accepting someone else as Guru. It is probably the physical mind which hunts after a Guru in a physical body.

      Also I want to add that it is interesting for me to read your experience of IY. I was quite involved in Art of Living at one time and I read similar things about that movement on a blog. Of course I had felt and experienced those things to a certain degree myself. It is interesting to note the similarities between the two organisations:
      1) A celebrity guru who is an excellent speaker 2) A breathing technique (I don’t know if shambhavi mudra is patented or not but I heard sudarshan kriya is) 3) Weekly/Monthly Satsangs to keep you “in” 4) Several levels of courses 5) Teacher training courses 6) Systematic brainwashing

      Since Sri Sri started earlier I am inclined to think SJV got the cue of the great business opportunity from him :-).

      Reply
      1. Anmol

        I suppose I gave a rather negative impression of SJV in the previous post so just want to add something. Inspite of all I said and my decision to keep away from him, I do believe that he has some yogic power. I kept away from him because I found the spiritual energies of him and Sri Aurobindo completely different and I did not want to get into a mess in my conciousness. But I do believe that if someone accepts him as his Guru he can progress as he has some power. Sri Aurobindo has said that a disciple can receive from a Guru inspite of the human limitations of the Guru and by surrendering and opening to the Guru it is to the Divine in him that one opens and even that sometimes the disciples can receive more than the Guru intended to give. I quote from two letters of Sri Aurobindo:

        “It is not the human defects of the Guru that can stand in the way
        when there is the psychic opening, confidence and surrender.
        The Guru is the channel or the representative or the manifestation
        of the Divine, according to the measure of his personality
        or his attainment; but whatever he is, it is to the Divine that one
        opens in opening to him; and if something is determined by the
        power of the channel, more is determined by the inherent and
        intrinsic attitude of the receiving consciousness, an element that
        comes out in the surface mind as simple trust or direct unconditional
        self-giving, and once that is there, the essential things can
        be gained even from one who seems to others than the disciple
        an inferior spiritual source, and the rest will grow up in the sadhak
        of itself by the Grace of the Divine, even if the human being
        in the Guru cannot give it.”

        “One can have a Guru inferior in spiritual capacity (to oneself
        or to other Gurus) carrying in him many human imperfections
        and yet, if you have the faith, the bhakti, the right spiritual stuff,
        you can contact the Divine through him, attain to spiritual experiences,
        to spiritual realisation, even before the Guru himself.
        Mark the “If”, for that proviso is necessary; it is not every disciple
        who can do that with every Guru. From a humbug you can
        acquire nothing but his humbuggery. The Guru must have something
        in him which makes the contact with the Divine possible,
        something which works even if he is not in his outer mind quite
        conscious of its action. If there is nothing at all spiritual in him,
        he is not a Guru, only a pseudo. Undoubtedly, there can be considerable
        differences of spiritual realisation between one Guru
        and another; but much depends on the inner relation between
        Guru and Shishya. One can go to a very great spiritual man and
        get nothing or only a little from him; one can go to a man of
        less spiritual capacity and get all he has to give – and more.
        The causes of this disparity are various and subtle; I need not
        expand on them here. It differs with each man. I believe the
        Guru is always ready to give what can be given, if the disciple
        can receive, or it may be, when he is ready to receive. If
        he refuses to receive or behaves inwardly or outwardly in such a
        way as to make reception impossible or if he is not sincere or
        takes up the wrong attitude, then things become difficult. But if
        one is sincere and faithful and has the right attitude and if the
        Guru is a true Guru, then, after whatever time, it will come.”

        (Sandeep: This passage is from Letters on Yoga, SABCL vol. 23, p 618)

  6. Mike

    I have seen some criticisms of Jaggi Vasudev Like the one below:

    “By enrolling in the Inner Engineering program, you ARE getting involved with the organization. Isha is not a simple yoga class down the street that one learns in an hour and leaves. It’s a complete takeover- mind, body and soul. In the IE program, you will not learn yoga asanas, you will learn the Shambhavi Mahamudra. This meditation takes 20 minutes and could be taught in less time.  Then why is the IE program 6 days long? Because it takes that long to break a person down and ‘convert’ them. Even Jaggi says that he makes the program long so he can “break down the concrete and till the soil of your mind” so he can plant the seed. He says Isha means seed, but I have not been able to confirm that with research. But either way, what seed is he planting?

    Keep in mind that the logical mind that agrees with sjv is also considered to be the obstacle to one’s spiritual freedom. He doesn’t want you to keep a skeptical mind. He will make an example of you if you question his comments in public. I’ve seen many people embarrassed in front of hundreds of others when they had a ‘skeptical’ question.  Yes, like now-or-never says, keep an open mind. But they don’t want you to have a mind in Isha. They want you to close it down (except when you use it to listen to his eloquent speeches) and accept Jaggi as your sadhguru.

    As far as brainwashing, I was IN. Even with my non-dogmatic, logical mind, I was a ‘believer.’ Over the years, I’ve seen many brilliant people easily turned into followers. And just in case you start to fall away from the indoctrination, they have monthly satsangs to keep you in the group. They obviously don’t give you the tools to be independent.

    Isha does have a Hatha Yoga class, but I believe it is mainly offered in Tennessee. At the ashram (of course). They don’t want ‘outsiders’ coming in to just learn Hatha Yoga and leave. No, Isha hatha Yoga is for the Isha devotees. They do allow outsiders into the Hatha program, of course, but the opportunity to recruit the outsiders into Isha is not wasted in that weekend program. Btw, sjv wholeheartedly discourages anyone teaching or learning yoga outside of his empire. Many yoga teachers go to his program hoping to learn some new yoga techniques, but instead, are told they are destroying their clients’ lives.

    So, in response to your question, I wouldn’t advise Isha Yoga.

    So what to do? I’m not one to make recommendations on what people should do. But a little something that I’ve realized…any kind of body energy work done consciously and with awareness will have dramatic effects on your physical and emotional health. examples: Tai chi, yoga asanas, pilates, stretching, exercise, etc. These, if done properly, can be a form of meditation as well.

    For a structured meditation practice, try something simple first. Again, not to tell people what to do, but maybe read about different techniques and try a few, especially the ones with little physical action. But ultimately, find your own practice by listening to your inner guidance.

    Otherwise, if you don’t mind paying the 300 dollars and listening to sjv telling you how unhappy you are….if you think you can keep a skeptical mind while being told that its a bad thing to have…if you don’t get caught up in Isha fever…if you can keep your open mind before, during and after the programs…if you want to experience shiva worship under the guise of spirituality….then go to Isha.”

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      As far as brainwashing, I was IN. Even with my non-dogmatic, logical mind, I was a ‘believer.’ Over the years, I’ve seen many brilliant people easily turned into followers. And just in case you start to fall away from the indoctrination, they have monthly satsangs to keep you in the group. They obviously don’t give you the tools to be independent.

      That’s distressing and funny at the same time! It reminds me of this tweet: “Gurus always want you to drop your “ego” so you can be easy prey for theirs!” that I saw on Diamond Sutra Zen feed.

      I think there is something about meditation in a group atmosphere which makes people drop their rationality. Maybe it is the wafting fumes of incense, the sense of security in being part of a group, etc.

      Sri Aurobindo has said, “The first thing people seem to surrender is their common sense!!” 🙂

      Reply
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  8. Latha

    HI TO ALL, NOW I HAVE REACHED A STATE FROM WHERE LIFE HAS BECOME VERY CLEAR TO ME , LET ME TELL EVERY ONE IN THIS PATH OF SELF REALIZATION THERE IS NO PHYSICAL GURU AND WE OUR SELVES ARE OUR OWN GURUS AND WHAT THIS PHYSICAL GURU CAN DO IS GIVE GURU MANTRA AND GUIDE US WHENEVER ADVERSE SITUATIONS ARISE BECAUSE THIS PATH IS REALLY NOT VERY EASY, IT AT TIMES CAN ALSO BE LIFE THREATENING. if you are strictly attracted towards some one because of music and chantings and his blessings then he is truly not a guru but he is fulfilling his own desires and really not bothered about you. There will be many self realized people around the world but they don’t proclaim to be the guru etc. I am also enlightened to some extent to help you in this path you can feel free to call me on my no in Bangalore India 8050077773 or write to me on latasubu@yahoo.com

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      Thank you Latha. I pray that millions of people call you to take advantage of your generous offer.

      Reply
  9. mike

    LOL.

    “I am also enlightened to some extent to help you in this path you can feel free to call me on my no in Bangalore India 8050077773 or write to me on”

    Should l send my credit card details too.

    “There will be many self realized people around the world but they don’t proclaim to be the guru etc”

    You could have fooled me lol. l must have missed them last time l looked.

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      When she has thousands of people hounding her day and night without respite, asking for better health, more money, and what not, she might reconsider her desire to enlighten others.

      The novelist R.K. Narayan wrote a novel “The Guide” in which a corrupt tour guide who has taken shelter in an abandoned temple is mistaken by the credulous villagers to be a holy man. Initially, all goes well as the “holy man” gets free food from the grateful villagers, but later there is a famine in the village and due to some miscommunication, the villagers stop feeding the “holy man” because they assume he is fasting to bring rain to the village. The media picks up the story and descends on the village creating a huge spectacle. The emaciated tour guide, denied any food, eventually dies while standing in the river one morning. The last line of the novel uttered in a fit of delusion by him is: “Its raining up the hills, I can feel it under my feet!”

      Reply
  10. mike

    “Purani: Yes-but I didn’t go to him again. Another friend after coming here asked me if he should go to see some Yogi. I told him he should not. He replied, “What’s the harm? It is the same spirituality.” I explained, “Maybe, but there are different spiritual energies and one may oppose another.”

    Sri Aurobindo: Quite so.

    Purani: But the man didn’t believe me. And he has paid the penalty for five years. He still hasn’t come here again! [3].”

    lt would seem that this doesn’t apply to Sri Krishna, though. l remember a letter from SA too – l think it was Dilip Kumar Roy – telling him that there was no harm in his devotion to Sri Krishna because of the major influence Krishna had on SA’s sadhana and the Yoga in general.

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      Yes, that was ok because there was some influence of Krishna on SA. As SA wrote in the Letters on Yoga, “The lights indicate the action of certain forces, usually indicated by the colour of the light. Whitish blue is known as Sri Aurobindo’s light or sometimes Sri Krishna’s light.” (SABCL, Letters On Yoga Volume-23, Visions And Symbols)

      Reply
  11. Sandeep Post author

    Aug 13, 1928: Recently S. Doraiswamy gave a copy of Uma Sahasram (a composition by Ganapati Muni) for Sri Aurobindo’s perusal who seemed to have deeply appreciated it. And the Mother expressed on her own: “If Ganapati Sastri is inclined to come for the August 15th Darshan he is welcome.”

    See a blog dedicated to the works of Kavyakantha Ganapati Muni

    http://kavyakantha.blogspot.in/

    Reply
  12. Kai

    Dear Sandeep,
    I think I missed to post the comment after typing and hence re updating the same.

    //Purani: Yes-but I didn’t go to him again. Another friend after coming here asked me if he should go to see some Yogi. I told him he should not. He replied, “What’s the harm? It is the same spirituality.” I explained, “Maybe, but there are different spiritual energies and one may oppose another.”

    Sri Aurobindo: Quite so.//

    Will this be the case for Deities also?.The Deities have unique Forces, spiritual Energies and belong to different levels of the Cosmos. If one worships multiple Deities, will their influences and Forces conflict with each other or will it be complementary in benefiting the worshiper.

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      Thats a tough question.

      This is just my guess, but I don’t think the influence of multiple Deities creates the same problems as the influence of multiple Gurus. The Rig Veda, if we go by Sri Aurobindo’s interpretation, does talk of multiple Gods (indra, varuna, mitra, maruts) manifesting in different parts of the human consciousness.

      The problem of mixing multiple Gurus arises because the Guru’s consciousness is tied to the disciple in a much more personal and intimate manner. There exists an emanation of the Guru within the disciple’s inner being which allows the Guru to maintain constant contact and influence the disciple as and when needed. Read this Undated 1957 Agenda entry where the Mother once answered a disciple’s question: “What does it mean when you say you are with us all the time?”

      In particular, she says:

      “…there is a special personal bond of affection between you and me, between all who have turned towards Sri Aurobindo’s teaching and me – and of course, distance does not count; you may be in France, at the other end of the world, or in Pondicherry, but this bond remains just as real and as living. Each time there is a call, each time I need to know something to send out a force, an inspiration, a protection or whatever else, a sort of message suddenly comes to me, and I do what is needed. Obviously, these communications come to me at any moment whatsoever, and you may have seen me more than once suddenly stop in the middle of a sentence or some work: it means something, some communication is coming, so I concentrate.

      There is more than a bond with those whom I have accepted as disciples, those to whom I have said ‘yes’ – there is an emanation of myself. Whenever necessary, this emanation notifies me as to what is happening. In fact, I know constantly, but all these things are not registered in my active memory, otherwise I would be flooded – the physical consciousness acts as a filter: things are recorded on a subtle plane and remain there in the latent state, rather like music that is silently recorded, and when I need to know something with my physical consciousness, I plug into this subtle plane and the tape starts playing. Then I can see things, their evolution and the present result.

      And if, for some reason or other, you write asking for my help, and I answer, ‘I am with you,’ this means that the communication with you becomes active, that you are even in my active consciousness for some time – the time needed.

      And this bond between you and me is never cut. There are people who left the Ashram a long time ago, in a state of revolt, and yet I continue to know them and to take care of them. You are never abandoned. ”

      Incidentally, the Mother’s remarks are in accord with verses on the Guru-disciple relationship in the ancient Kularnava Tantra. In chapter 10, the Kularnava Tantra talks of vedhaka diksha(initiation by subtle impact) by which the Guru influences the disciple:

      “The wise shall effect the vedha (subtle impact) following the method received from the Guru. In a moment will the disciple in bonds get freed from them. This is intense, tivra, initiation yielding liberation. Merely by remembrance on the part of the Guru, proficient in the vedha, the disciple has his sin severed; this is the highly intense, tivratara diksha. Released from external activity he falls on the ground instantly; a godly state arises in him and he comes to know everything….Difficult to get is such a Guru who can initiate thus by subtle impact; difficult also is the disciple fit for it; it is only by happy conjunction of merit that he is obtained. But this initiation shall not be given to anybody and everybody; such is the Command.” (Kularnava Tantra translated by M.P. Pandit, Motilal Banarsidass, 2010, page 106)

      Reply
  13. Pingback: Practicing Yoga without a Guru | Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo & The Mother

  14. nizken

    Posting further reply here as I felt this was the appropriate thread for this topic of differentiating fake gurus…
    So is there any objective empirical evidence for how a guru must be like? Any ‘scientific’ empirical-based criterion at all? Or we all choose our gurus mostly in an entirely subjective ‘inner’ manner? For instance the Buddha was endowed with all the “holy marks” like long ears, handsome body yadda yadda….. u get the picture :p

    I’m a total novice and easily impressionable with a very teenage mind hence I’m always worried about my choices (since I’ve always made lots of mistakes in my amateur mind which is still at a teenage level, raging hormones and what not!) 😦 I’ve come to SA&M in very weird and peculiar circumstances but I’m still worried if I’ve made the right choice since it’s mostly an intellectual predilection and understanding which draws me to SA&M (and perhaps nostalgia for the Indian culture?)
    I had been searching for a perfect teacher or mentor in the real world especially among older people, professors and business ‘gurus’ in NYC etc but have mostly been disillusioned by what I’ve witnessed out there.

    Reply
    1. Sandeep Post author

      The criteria is that the Guru must bestow an unmistakable spiritual experience on you, but in practice this does not work because immature people have delusions and claim to have received the same experience from a charlatan. As a result, it is difficult to decide who is right and who is wrong. Nobody can tell. There is no objective criteria.

      Nizken:I had been searching for a perfect teacher or mentor in the real world especially among older people, professors and business ‘gurus’ in NYC etc but have mostly been disillusioned by what I’ve witnessed out there.

      The perfect Guru will come when you have ripened and gained some spiritual maturity, as Mike already said. That will require some independent effort – some contemplation, philosophical development on your part, a longing for Divine, and a desire to see the reality behind the appearances. In this process, you may have to go through multiple teachers anyway, so why not learn from whoever is offering some wisdom ?

      There could even be times when you will get bored or disillusioned by all the “spiritual rhetoric” and turn your back on whatever you are learning right now. But that doesn’t matter because the seed has been planted and it will take a few seasons for the fruit to appear.

      Reply
  15. mike

    Yeah, nizken, l know what you mean. l started out with a sikh guru but then SA’s ‘letters on Yoga’ fell into my hands and when l saw His picture l believe there was some kind of ‘inner recognition’ and an immediate attraction or knowing – like l’d come home.
    A lot of experiences started after that that coincided with His teachings – like the Descent of Force etc…
    lt might be an idea if you ask SA and Mother to give you some experience or vision to confirm they are your Guru’s.
    l’m not in lndia so l’m not sure about the Guru situation there at the moment – sandeep and others here would know about that… l know there is M.MEERA in germany who a lot flock to, but l’m dubious about her.
    Of course, there is the Dalai Lama if you choose to go down that road.
    l still firmly believe, however, that when ‘the disciple is ready the Master will appear’ – no doubts about that.

    Reply
  16. Pingback: Energy but it is not my energy | Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo & The Mother

  17. Surya

    Avadhoot Shivanand Babaji never asked to treat Him as one’s Guru. In our sadhana also we can focus our own Guru, with whom we are connected (as we think) in our Agna chakra and do the sadhana. So there is no need to feel that you are having two Gurus. Once you are settled and calm inside and start craving for the higher level inside, if you are ready inside, your Guru will come to you by HIS own. You no need to worry about. So many enlightened masters are there in our country. You can gain knowledge and spiritual awakening from any of them you contact. It is always there in our country since ages. Paramhamsa Yogananda met Mahavatar Babaji in Kumbhmela at first. Obviously he might have enlightened and blessed him. His own family Guru was Lahiri Mahashaya, who save him from his almost death, when he was a child. They all Siddhas. But his Guru was (is) Sri Yuketswara Giri. What we say for this. He felt bliss in front of all the above three, when they gave him darshan. So, it is not a sin if you have So many Spirtual Guides, they might not be your Gurus. Your one and only Guru will come to you, when the time comes. Till then we can drink the nectar, cry with bliss, and truthfully go ahead with our sadhana. Namah Shivay.

    Reply
  18. mike

    “Paramhamsa Yogananda met Mahavatar Babaji in Kumbhmela at first. Obviously he might have enlightened and blessed him. His own family Guru was Lahiri Mahashaya, who save him from his almost death, when he was a child. They all Siddhas. But his Guru was (is) Sri Yuketswara Giri. What we say for this. He felt bliss in front of all the above three, when they gave him darshan. So, it is not a sin if you have So many Spirtual Guides, they might not be your Gurus”

    Surya, that’s different. All Yogananda’s gurus were of the same Kriya Yoga Lineage, so there was no problem. Not all Yoga’s or Paths are the same.

    Reply
  19. mike

    This is still a good read, and now with all the internet gurus out there, as well, it’s a cautionary tale, to say the least.
    There’s an update on mother meera who has apparently come out of her closet and given up the oath of silence. She is now on speaking tours around the globe. l’m still convinced she is a vital guru – as Nolini said when he saw her at the ashram.
    She is still making this big claim that she is carrying on the work of SA and M – unlikely imo (but what do l know).
    Here’s a recent video interview with her. At one point she says demons do not exist. No doubt there is a subjective element, where people’s fears can create thought-forms etc, but considering what SA and M have said about the existence of these beings!!
    ln the beginning she tells a little girl that angels exist everywhere, but apparently the opposite doesn’t exist, except in our imagination. Judge for yourselves.

    Reply
    1. nizken

      Returning back to see your posts after so many years working around the world! This blog by Sandeep is still an excellent resource even after a decade…..thanks Mike and Mark and everyone else who comment as well.

      Can anyone provide me a list of gurus and guruesses from Hinduism that I can take a look at? Gurus from the 1900- onward would be good; I can find the older ones like Chaitanya or Ramakrishna of Dakshineswar online I suppose. I’m just curious if there are any other “important spiritual figures” that I should research (since I’ve only stuck to Sri Aurobindo & The Mother since 2008). Many thanks and appreciate your inputs…..

      Reply
      1. Sas

        My two cents…If SA and M brought down the Supermind (dymanic Truth Consciousness and not only the Truth in a trance or Samadhi state) for the first time, then how can other Gurus be of the same caliber, I wonder! They dont even lay much stress on anything except attaining God in meditation…its difficult to assume they had any hint of the dynamic Divine.. How many times the great sage Ramakrishna or Ramana Maharshi laid stress on dynamic Divine state? Zero, I guess…So lets assume they attained the one below ie Overmind…

        Sri Aurobindo states in The Mother book, a time will come when the physical action will itself be initiated by the Divine…its like a walking talking instrument of God. Does any other Guru even try to attain that state? hmm…

        Attaining siddhis is another thing…siddhis dont give us great peace, bliss etc…by showing off siddhis, one can get some fame lol…

        Sri Nolini Kanta Gupta said before leaving his body, he attained a state “little over the Overmind”….provided Champaklal attained similar states, we can assume both attained higher states of Dynamic Self realisation higher than the other Gurus!

        Just if we watch present day Gurus interviews…their actions clearly indicate their movements are influenced by lower laws rather than higher…how their eyes move when talking and their facial gestures…these indicate their outer being isnt transformed, ie just like ordinary people…guess, they even tried to transform the outer being.. they only received the thing in deep meditation thats all…

        From present day youtube videos from the Sri Aurobindo Ashram, I think Mr Richard i.e Narad has undergone some great transformation …I dont know him personally though…Would be blessed to meet him if given a chance…

        There are many unknown sadhus in the himalayas or the Naga sadhus who have some solid realizations but how much they tried to bring that realization to transform the outer nature is questionable…because if they did, they wouldn’t have forsaken the world in the first place !

  20. mike

    Hi nizken, there are a few other interesting gurus [east and west]. Trailanga swami was called the ‘walking shiva’ by Sri Ramakrishna and supposedly lived for 300 years [SA talks about him a bit in the evening talks l think].
    Shirdi Sai Baba [not sathya sai – a vital guru imo] is a fascinating guru.
    There are some good youtube movies about these two.
    ln the west was Daskalos [the Master of Cyprus] who was remarkable. He was an esoteric/gnostic christian. The book about his life ‘The magus of strovolos’ is an incredible book.
    There was a bulgarian master called Omraam too.
    Of course, there are many vital guru’s, as SA calls them, like meher baba and the present day mother meera who lives in germany [now travels a lot]. Nolini and others saw her years ago at the ashram and he said she had a ‘vital power’. l know she has a power because l’ve experienced it myself. When she claims to be working SA and M, l can’t take her seriously.

    Reply
    1. nizken

      Are there any good gurus in India (of the caliber of SA & M) who may be worth looking at from past 140 yrs? I wonder if the Avatar and guru incarnations are still prevalent and if there are any living gurus or saints today whose initiation might be useful. I’ve heard about the “hugging saint” of Kerala and Sathya Sai Baba in recent years (but there are lots of accusations about Sai Baba from a lot of Indians!)
      The rest of the famous gurus or spiritual men like Yogananda, Meher Baba seem to have passed on and the Mother Mirra Alfassa seems to have been the most recent one to my knowledge. I don’t know anything about the spiritual tradition in India and if there are any other spiritual gurus out there (alive or deceased) hence I’m asking this question.

      I’m very interested to know if there are any genuine spiritual men or ashrams out there which may be worth taking a lot at., Or even books or other material from other gurus from the past. Thank you so much for all the help I get here Mike and all of you bloggers!

      Reply
      1. mike

        Only guru l’ve heard of who was in the Supermind [validated by M] is Vallalar or Rāmalingam. Just disappeared one day in 1874. Temple in vadalur, tamil nadu. Still quite active l believe.
        l mostly read SA and M now or disciples. Some good books on auro-ebooks.

  21. mike

    Yes Sas, l agree that none of these gurus you mention ever attempted the ‘Transformation of Matter’ in the way SA and M did. But, this doesn’t mean they haven’t realized the Supramental. The Mother said Vallalar did, but of course he made no attempt at a Global Transformation. SA did say there were yogi’s, Sages etc. in the past who had realized the Supermind, they just didn’t bring it down throught the other planes for the purpose of transformation. from what l understand. l mean, the Vedas and Upanishad’s talk about the Supramental [symbolically] according to SA, so the Rishi’s of that time obviously had knowledge and experience of it.
    l think this is what your getting at.
    There can’t be many living today who are in the Supermind [but what do l know].
    Even great souls like Ramana and Anandamayi ma weren’t in the Supermind – SA specifically said this about them.
    So, yeah, a very rare phenomenon.
    l think there might have been other sadhaks apart from Nolini and Champaklal [male and female] who could have realized the Supramental – known and unknown. What about Satprem and Sujita?

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Thanks for sharing some new facts to me. Wasn’t aware of Sri Ramalingam ji….but my question is, did SA or M say others reached the Supermind in the same extent as They did? or only some fragments? I didnt read their entire works so this is a honest question…even Bahai religion speaks of a new race coming but M didnt speak very highly (not bad either) of the grand son of the Bahai founder….

      we cant fathom what is inside someones head! overmind , supermind, or no mind but we can find some clues by observing how much they have transformed their outer nature…eyes, facial expressions, body language, words they speak …these are reflections of their prakriti…so we can get some idea how much is the purusha separated from the outer nature…

      on another thought, supreme beings like SA or M, out of their infinite compassion and humility said things which were true but not to the extent of our mortal understanding. For eg, SA said good things about Muhammad. But upon reading Koran and hadiths, couldnt find any trace of Divinity in Muhammad. Not even a moral man. But SA and M saw everyone as the Brahman, so essentially everyone is God to them.SA even saw Brahman in a cat! and M saw God in flowers and material objects!..but our narrow minds sometimes wont accept and how can we accept something if the inside of us disagrees with it? Its hard…eg. Flowers and cat, no issue but cant accept Muhammad as some Divine being

      ….there is one video of Ramakrisha Das in youtube and another young man along who is translating him…it shows RD had completely got rid of his ego..the difference is striking between the young man vs RD… reg Satprem, M herself said great things about him…

      we are no one to criticize higher beings, but no harm in appreciating the good we observe and leave aside the bad…

      Reply
  22. mike

    HI sas, l believe SA and M said these ‘others’ were fully realized in the Supramental, especially in the case of Vallalar, but l think they didn’t believe an integral transformation was possible, so didn’t try. Of course there are Higher worlds than the Supramental, according to SA and M. l think they said after the Supramental is the Ananda plane, but humanity isn’t ready for it yet.
    From what l’ve read M said She was very fond of Abdu’l-Bahá of the Baháʼí Faith. She even accompanied him on his paris lectures. Where did you hear that She didnt speak very highly of him?. Their ‘new race’ probably has little to do with the Supramental Transformation.

    ‘For eg, SA said good things about Muhammad. But upon reading Koran and hadiths, couldnt find any trace of Divinity in Muhammad. Not even a moral man’

    Yes, l’m in total agreement. There a debate going on at the moment about whether the mohammed of the koran even existed or was simply an invention. Even SA said that some scholars at the time claimed that the real mohammed lived about 3000 years before the one in the koran. SA only really accepted sufism as a spiritual truth. Of course, the lslamized version aka al-ghazali has nothing to do with true sufism, which was around long before lslam ever existed. Islam just hijacked it like it’s done with many things, then claimed them as it’s own.
    SA also said this about mohammed –
    ‘in the case of mohammed – and here we have another dictator for you! – the descent corresponded with the extension, the expansion, in life’

    He’s talking about how a Descent of Force enters one man and extends it’s influence to mankind. But, he says the new Force gets mixed up with the lower powers – a vital mixture that comes in and corrupts the whole spiritual movement. Certainly looks like that’s what happened with islam, if you look at the ‘meccan’ part of the koran and compare it with what happened after – many other religions too.
    lt’s difficult to understand why so many great gurus have praised mohammed. Even Sri Ramakrishna had a divine vision of him!

    l haven’t heard of ‘Thukdam’ but from that link it just sounds like Samadhi to me.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Hi Mike, thanks for a very informative reply.

      “She even accompanied him on his paris lectures” – yes that is how She knew about Bahai faith. She didnt think negatively but not too highly as far can be understood. Kindly check all she had to say about the grandson of Bahai founder she met…I read long back…weak memory..

      if we introspect, bahai religion such a wonderful faith (?) they believe in/respect Muhammad, Allah, islam etc whereas in fact it was the Islamic faith that imprisoned the founder of Bahai religion for life. Its like this. Krishna singing praises of Kansa after having known he jailed his parents! Woah!

      “lt’s difficult to understand why so many great gurus have praised mohammed. Even Sri Ramakrishna had a divine vision of him!”
      – Thats what I wondered too…before coming to the conclusion that material fact collection has its place! One can be in a spiritually very high state but it is very difficult to know certain material facts! this conclusion i came to after many a thought…SA said, He/M or the Divine will know the general underlying things that govern the mind of any person but may not know for eg what X had for dinner…while many may say thats fair enough..why we worry about material small details? but when Islam followers follow those small useless details rather than the essential jist of the teaching, then all problem begins! They even count how many times a certain word has been mentioned in the Koran and take decisions!

      so, can it be like this…the thought that goes behind the great gurus misconception about Islam….They assumed such a great mass following religion must have some authenticity…and pursue their conclusions from that basis assumption. SA said Muhammad never said he is the last Prophet….whereas in fact Koran says many times Muhammed is the last prophet and final messenger of God! …again we see here….facts!!

      The Divine may know clearly the intricate corners of my mind, but will He care to know if I brushed my teeth yesterday morning? Divine is the highest form of detached state, so why He will bother about these useless details? Similarly if SA never bothered much about factual details in the Koran, it is fine for any sensible people or race but problem starts when people take these small details more seriously than the underlying message…

      what I feel is, will we find any difference between a Supermind realised Guru (one who doesnt bother to transform the nature) vs a Overmind realised Guru? hardly i guess…if the seeker is himself at the Overmind level, he wouldnt bother at all…and if much lower, then even the Overmind Guru will radiate the peace and bliss and influence the seekers aspirations…

      another open question is, can one attain the Supermind without transforming the nature? Is it not the fundamental difference between Supermind and alll other states, that is it dynamic Truth consciousness and that it cannot be attained without transforming the outer nature…correct me if wrong.. Thank you.

      about Thukdam – it is not samadhi..its a state where the monk leaves the body and the dead body remains without any degeneration for weeks defying all rules of medical science! In SA’s case it was of 4 days, but Thukdam masters do it for some weeks! An extremely rare feat. Scientists couldnt find till now the reason…as recent as last month, one Buddhist monk did leave the body in Thukdam…

      Reply
  23. mike

    Sandeep, please feel free to delete any of my comments if you think they’re inappropriate.

    Yes sas, l think the Bahai’s might have the same approach as the Sufi’s – toward mohammed. This is a quote is from a well respected sufi master Bhai Sahib [the Guru of a russian woman called irina tweedie who is quite well known]:
    ‘He is then passed still higher up his chain until he reaches ‘self-annihilation in the Prophet.’ By the Prophet is here understood, not Mohammed, as man, but as the ‘Primal Element,’ the First Intelligence, the Word. Beyond lies only the last, the final stage—‘Union,’ ‘God,’ ‘Truth,’ what you will, words are meaningless; it is beyond all telling, and the Sufi says: ‘From him who has made the journey, no news returns’.”

    So, mohammed the man means nothing to sufi’s and Bahai’s. lt’s strange that none of these enlightened masters have ever criticised mohammed or lslam – except SA who did call him a dictator. Vivekananda did, l believe, but later changed his mind.

    ‘One can be in a spiritually very high state but it is very difficult to know certain material facts!’

    Yes, SA and M said many times that even if someone has great realizations, it doesn’t mean they have the Ultimate Truth or Knowledge – SA said it about Ramana and Vivekananda.

    ‘why we worry about material small details? but when Islam followers follow those small useless details rather than the essential jist of the teaching, then all problem begins! They even count how many times a certain word has been mentioned in the Koran and take decisions!’

    Yes, your right. The sufi master l quoted above says the same thing:

    ‘Everything comes out of it, of the Absolute. One should go beyond words like God, Om, Ram, Ishwara, etc. Only Absolute Truth is Real. The doctrines of Islam are the best. I mean the metaphysics of it. But the superficial ‘Islam is not. Much hypocrisy crept into it’

    l mean, was muhammed a psychopathically, messed up vehicle for a Higher Power? Some of the nonsense in the koran is unbelievable – like the Angel Gabriel telling muhammed he couldn’t go into his house because there was dog inside. So, they go out and kill all the dogs or Gabriel throttling muhammed in the cave, telling him to read and muhammed screaming – but l can’t read. lt’s a total farce.

    ‘SA said Muhammad never said he is the last Prophet….whereas in fact Koran says many times Muhammed is the last prophet and final messenger of God! …again we see here….facts!!’

    l’ve seen those passages too. l’m not so sure they hold up as fact.
    Some academics have said the ‘Last of Prophets’ thing is probably a later translation. Originally, there were several koran versions until the 3rd caliph [around 635 i think] Uthman, decided to keep one and chuck the rest. So, god knows how much ‘fact’ was left after that. Of course, if mohammed never existed then he never said it.

    These scholars seem to agree with SA:
    ‘According to Alford T. Welch, the traditional Muslim belief that Muhammad is “last and greatest of the prophets” is most likely based on a later interpretation of 33:40.[39]
    The first modern academic to have studied in detail the history of the doctrine of finality of prophethood is Yohanan Friedmann.[40] In his seminal article, Finality of Prophethood in Sunni Islam (1986), he concluded that although the notion of finality of prophethood “eventually acquired an undisputed and central place in the religious thought of Islam,” it was contested during the first century AH.[1] He states, “While it is true that the phrase khatam an-nabiyyin is generally interpreted as meaning ‘the last prophet’, the exegetical tradition and other branches of classical Arabic literature preserved material which indicates that this now generally received understanding of the Qur’anic phrase is not the only possible one and had not necessarily been the earliest.”[1][40] Due to this Friedmann states that the meaning of khatam an-nabiyyin in its original Qur’anic context is still in doubt’

    ‘another open question is, can one attain the Supermind without transforming the nature? Is it not the fundamental difference between Supermind and alll other states, that is it dynamic Truth consciousness and that it cannot be attained without transforming the outer nature…correct me if wrong’

    l’m not qualified to speak about these things, but i think the fact that the Supramental is now at work in the physical world means that it will spread like a contagion and those who are ready to receive will automatically become it’s instruments. SA always said that without the first two realizations – Psychic and Spiritual – the Supramental is impossible. That might have changed now, though, so the transformation of the lower nature your talking about, could take place automatically. But, the Mother says the Supramental transformation on earth won’t be seen for thousands of years. She mentions an ‘intermediate’ species that the Pychic Being might create before the Advent of Superman. George Van Wrekham has written extensively on this. He calls it ‘OVERMAN’. Could be a few around already for all i know lol.

    And finally,
    Yes, thanks for clearly explaining ‘Thukdam’. l must have missed the bit about them dying lol. l was confusing it with another phenomenon called – Delog. There’s an interesting book on this about a female tibetan lama highly regarded by tibetans and the Dalai Lama, i think. Her son wrote the book and says:

    ‘My mother was revered throughout Tibet for her extraordinary powers as a lama, but she was more famous for being a delog (pronounced DAY-loak), one who has crossed the threshold of death and returned to tell about it. Hers was not a visionary or momentary near-death experience. For five full days she lay cold, breathless, and devoid of any vital signs, while her consciousness moved freely into other realms, often escorted by the wisdom goddess White Tara’

    Thukdam is probably not samadhi, though, unless it’s mahasamadhi.
    Actually, there are a few christian saints who are still in a state incorruptibility. Padre Pio was one who died in 1968. But, l don’t put much trust in the catholic church.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Thanks a lot for your very informative answers. You seem to have an ocean of knowledge and certainly the right person for me to ask more questions lol…

      so i asked this question to some respected people but they refused to answer without even giving an explanation..(although they were kind to answer my other questions, so thanks to that)…and not answering without giving an explanation only increases the curiosity many folds lol…so my question is…

      we are “worried” about the evolution of this little earth and what species will come after x no. of years, what they will look like etc….but what about the significance of the rest of the creation? there are literally infinite number of stars , planets, galaxies , black holes, comets etc…what is the significance of these? i am not seeking to know whether alien life exists…my question is more on the lines of….even if there is no alien life (or there is, doesnt matter), what is the meaning of the rest of the creation where there is no life?

      the only answer i got is, its God’s delight…hmmm….ok if this is God’s delight, then why we not bother about evolution in the earth’s future and leave it to “Gods delight”? why do any work at all? karma is of not any use then, all is Gods delight, so lets sit and go into a deep trance and enjoy the Delight? but we find meaning in karma and that we are sent in the world to do the work that comes naturally and do it in a selfless way and realise God in work…ok…so we found a meaning in our sending here…but what about the meaning behind the endless creation? if God is concerned about the earth and keeps sending hundreds of avatars, bhibhutis here, how is it logical to assume he creates the rest of the infinite creation without any motive?

      Reply
      1. mike

        ‘but what about the meaning behind the endless creation? if God is concerned about the earth and keeps sending hundreds of avatars, bhibhutis here, how is it logical to assume he creates the rest of the infinite creation without any motive?’

        l think Sraddhalu answers your question perfectly in this video interview. He also says he’s seen several UFO’s. The Mother also saw one over pondicherry.

    2. Sandeep Post author

      “Sandeep, please feel free to delete any of my comments if you think they’re inappropriate.”

      I saw my name somewher 🙂

      I have no time to follow this thread and reply or delete it. So please continue…

      Reply
    3. Sas

      Hi Mike, thanks for the link to Sri Sradhalus video. Unable to comment under your post that has the video…pls allow me to clarify myself…as I said in my comment earlier, I was not talking about alien life….for life to survive we need certain conditions…..even if extreme but there is a limit….life cant survive in stars or black holes…and even if we assume in all planets there is life (although scientific proof is totally contrary to this claim!) there are still infinite number of stars, comets, black holes etc where there is no scope for life…

      so whats the motive behind all of these? and these are not static either…constantly thousands of stars might be formed at every moment and thousands dying! so far no avatar was much bothered about anything beyond the earth…is what we call as “God”, a God of the earth alone? shouldnt the Truth consciousness encompass the creation in its entirety?

      but if the counter argument is there is life in stars also! then i would totally disagree and end the discussion here since beyond a certain point, its just impossible to believe… may be it is my limitation in understanding but at the same time we must be truthful to our present senses and not just believe even if the core of our being rejects the idea…

      Reply
  24. mike

    Yes sas. l get your point. ln the video Sradhalu discusses everything you’ve mentioned. lt’s not just about aliens. He goes into depth about life and evolution on other planets.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      i saw the video at 2:25 am in the morning (or late night as one would call it) so i was little dizzy…hence saw it again now…he doesnt mention much about the infinite number of non-planets that have no chance of life…one fact ..venus max temp is not 300 as is claimed, but 462 using a google search..anyway thats not the point…

      secondly, again this is from my 0.000002 cents, from all these videos i find Mr Narad the most truthful to his soul, each word he speaks has an immobile stamp of honesty…for eg, if u ask such a person “do u know this or that or can u tell us about this or that?” and if they dont know, they will say “actually, i dont know”…but not all are like this honest…it takes lot of inner courage to speak exactly what one knows from first hand experience vs what one believes fully in, but not experienced himself…not sure that can be said for all others…thats why i respect Mr Narad the most…again i may be wrong…

      people say all sorts of things…not all are wrong…if consciousness and spiritual knowledge is that strong (for them), why dont they do this small experiment, try to study the stock market and predict it? at least here all honesty/dishonesty will come out…or study chess and try to beat a much higher rated opponent consistently? i say these because i do stock market for a living and trust me it is HARD…no matter one does sadhana, uses “higher energy” , this or that, its HARD…you cant HIDE behind theories here….you are naked…all alone…if u are right , u earn, if u are wrong u lose…

      and this stock market has its own theories, plenty of it…there are tons of laws, books…its not a gamble…there is a certain pattern…but it is truthful…all ones fancies of being someone great will be exposed here….same with chess….so my take it, one can come and prove oneself right….be ABSOLUTELY HONEST…because there is nothing greater than honesty…and for absolute honesty, firstly the ego has to be totally dissolved…because a small amount of ego will make one feel things about himself which may take him away from reality…

      Reply
    2. Sas

      why we take SA and M in all totality is because of a number of evidences of people who interacted with Them. Many narrated mystical experiences by their touch or simple by look. Some experienced a massive peace or some said their mind became still or hunger evaporated etc…Can the same be said for everyone else? if someone claims to explain everything in the world so confidently , then naturally some skepticism arises…hence my example of “why not check your skills in this or that” was given in my last comment..

      Reply
  25. mike

    Sas, l’m not quite sure what you mean by non-planets, possibly stars and the like. The Divine is everywhere, so life and evolution is everywhere, just way beyond our comprehension. Some are further up the evolutionary scale than others, that’s all. There are many dead planets etc, l suppose, which might have stopped evolving like the moon [where M said the chinese came frpm] and mars [where the rest of humanity came from according to SA]. Although, there’s nothing stopping life from re-emerging again if it’s the Divine Will. Before this present cycle of creation there were 6 before it. Because they weren’t ‘progressive’ they ended in pralaya. So, unless something ‘progresses’ it dies. SA and M explain it well:

    ‘THE MOTHER’S VISION > 2.1 THE UNFOLDING OF THE UNIVERSE
    2.1 The Unfolding of the Universe

    In the history of our universe there have been six consecutive periods which began by a creation, were prolonged by a force of preservation and ended by a disintegration, a destruction, a return to the Origin, which is called Pralaya.[…] But it has been said that the seventh creation would be a progressive creation, that is, after the starting-point of the creation, instead of its being simply followed by a preservation, it would be followed by a progressive manifestation which would express the Divine more and more completely, so that no disintegration and return to the Origin would be necessary. And it has been announced that the period we are in is precisely the seventh, that is, it would not end by a Pralaya […] but it would be replaced by a constant progress, because it would be a more and more perfect unfolding of the divine Origin in its creation.

    And this is what Sri Aurobindo says. He speaks of a constant unfolding, that is, the Divine manifests more and more completely, more and more perfectly, in a progressive creation. It is the nature of this progression which makes the return to the Origin, the destruction no longer necessary. All that does not progress disappears, and that is why physical bodies die, it’s because they are not progressive; they are progressive up to a certain moment, then there they stop and most often they remain stable for a certain time, and then they begin to decline, and then disappear. It’s because the physical body, physical matter as it is at present is not plastic enough to be able to progress constantly. But it is not impossible to make it sufficiently plastic for the perfecting of the physical body to be such that it no longer needs disintegration, that is, death.

    Only, this cannot be realised except by the descent of the Supermind which is a force higher than all those which have so far manifested and which will give the body a plasticity that will allow it to progress constantly, that is, to follow the divine movement in its unfolding’

    Yes, your right about being ‘honest’ [SA and M mention ‘Sincerity’ a lot] with ourselves. Most people are afraid of being wrong, and will say anything to appear right. Falsehood is almost universal in humanity. Self-pretence is disgusting and l’ve noticed it many times in myself. We all want to be clever and all-knowing, don’t we lol. Until we have the ultimate knowledge [Supramental], we know very little really, even though we think we’re an ‘Ocean of Knowledge’ – more like an ‘Ocean of lgnorance’.

    ‘why we take SA and M in all totality is because of a number of evidences of people who interacted with Them. Many narrated mystical experiences by their touch or simple by look’

    Yes, l know what you mean. Without the experiences l would have left the Path years ago. l never met them physically, but l’ve lost count of all the inner contacts and experiences l’ve had with them. And the waking experiences of sadhana that many get, l suppose.
    l have had experiences with other, what l’d call vital guru’s [a phase l had to go through], like sai baba and m.meera, but always felt l belonged with SA and M.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Thanks Dear Mike. All my questions are now quenched. Now even if corona comes , I can die peacefully. thanks again 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Reply
    1. Sas

      Let me share my opinion about this infinite and eternal creation which has perplexed me more than the evolution in earth or any other problem in earth since the earth is only a fraction of dust in this whole cosmos so its importance cannot be more than dust in totality of importance. As usual this is my 0.00002 cents…and i will try to be absolutely honest to my views, not trying to copy someone else’s thoughts on this topic , nor deliberately hijacking someone else’s experience as mine etc

      so what we have known so far on this topic is…life is everywhere and evolution is everywhere…spiritual people to materialists be like “oh i can see beings everywhere..its your problem you cant see”..and materialists be like “even if i agree with the truthfulness of your experience, but we are talking about here of physical objects like stars and planets. Beings in the invisible world don’t need a material place to reside/survive..so why make physical places at all? why not let those beings reside and roam about in empty ether? and how can we explain the infinite dynamic nature of this creation where every now and then a star is born and a star is lost? we are talking about physical objects of infinite proportions so your theory of invisible beings is not an exact fit here”…

      my theory begins here…

      so as we know God is super consciousness but He is also inconscient as He feels to choose whether to reveal Himself in totality or hide Himself…so far the great avatars, seers and sages have known Him my looking within and realizing the Soul (M and SA went one step further than brought down that experience to transform the nature, which makes Them my Gurus, but will leave that topic as of now)..so throughout earths great spiritual history all these Great Beings realised God by LOOKING WITHIN…in short, they were great INROVERTS…so the whole spirituality concept is developed so far to be “Look Within, know Thyself, Know the Soul, Know the Infinite and Eternal, Know God”….

      BUT…what about the Extroverts or the materialists who dont know how to look within himself? Has he no chance at realizing God? So God created this infinite physical universe, fully dynamic and if even the most materialist extrovert just keeps contemplating on THAT UNIVERSE 24/7 all the time , its timeless and all-pervading nature, infinitely expanding nature, his mind will fall totally silent and if the same is practiced again and again just like the repetition of “looking within” by the sage, he will too realize his Self!!! i have seen evidences of many people who are pure materialists but whenever they contemplate in wonder on this universe via the images available to us by NASA and not by hypothetical imagination..their mind falls silent …only thing is, they do it unconsciously..if they knew this would also lead to self realization, they would have repeated this process lol…

      in the eyes of God, the scientist/atheist/materialist is as much important as the sage..The sage might be a luminous inner looking being, but the materialist, with always an outer looking nature, is no less! after all, he is also honest to himself like the sage, always willing to know the truth, whatever he assumes the truth to be! Because God is all loving, all compassionate, infinitely understanding and infinitely out-reaching even to the most ignorant and always happy to reveal Himself in any and all means possible.

      Short are the days where the soul will be realised only by the sages, the scientists too will join! Its only a matter to time they realise that repeating this “universe gazing” would lead to miraculous results within!! And that is my 0.000002 cents worth of useless opinion… 🙂

      Reply
    2. Sas

      continuing on this thought further…

      why cant the Earth and planets themselves be conscious beings with whom one could come into contact with if attempted? Sri krishna says in Srimad Bhagatam for villagers to worship Govardhan parvat because it gives the villagers agriculture and natural resources. Sri Aurobindo says to Nirodbaran when asked whatever he said in his political days were true and that if He really considered India not as a piece of land but as the Mother. He replied he was not a materialist and that India was in reality the Mother India, ie a living consciousness. So if we stretch these two arguments further, the Earth is spinning and rotating through millions of years supporting us as if an act of supreme compassion and sacrifice asking nothing in return. We are like bacteria surviving on it, polluting it and dying in 100 years and then saying the parent ie Earth as non-living!! It is as if some virus enters our body , dies in 2/3 days and since the body lives longer the bacteria says the body is non-living! Such a strange argument!

      Living beings have a beginning and end. Stars and planets too are born and die. Living beings grow with age and diminish before their death…same with stars and planets…Living beings have immunity to fight against diseases and adverse forces. Earth too has a self rectifying system in Nature that , if humans (its bacteria!) wouldn’t make a mess out of it, would correct itself! Living beings usually move. Planets too move indefinitely and stars too move as a whole with the creation as is proved by science of the ever expanding universe. Living beings make sound usually. Stars and planets too make sound as if now recorded by modern equipments…saw in youtube…the sound waves are captured and converted into audible sounds to the human ear.

      Likewise, all planets and stars and “heavenly bodies” (the name is striking!) are all conscious beings with a near infinite life span compared to humans and almost ego-less serving nature
      – which makes us believe they are non-conscious compared to us weak mortals – and serving the command of God, the all pervading supreme consciousness that takes all decisions above these heavenly bodies. That would attempt to answer my question why God creating infinite material objects like stars and planets since subtle-physical beings don’t require material places for their existence…

      just my 0.00000000002 cents..

      Reply
  26. Sas

    Whoever felt a strong spiritual/occult force today during Solar eclipse, let me know. I am not any sadhak or yogi, having almost no capacity, still could feel it. Would like to know others feedback. The force was kind of “warm” …strikingly different from the calm presence that results from moon gazing/trataka at night…surely these heavenly bodies do have consciousness and emanate forces from time to time as per favorable circumstances for the force to act. Of course lesser than the Supreme Divine force…but these cant be just “dead matter”.

    Reply
  27. mike

    Yes sas, l’ve definitely saw and felt things last night. Like ananda in the body [didn’t know there was an eclipse, though]. This Ananda or Force comes and goes – still not sure what it is; kundalini perhaps.
    Last night was different though. l was lying in bed around 4-5 am, and the ananda movement got very intense.Then l saw [subtle vision] the Mother on the ashram balcony facing me with Her hands outstretched and Force or Light pouring from them [obviously She still gives Darshan]. Only saw white Light but had the impression it could be gold. l don’t think it’s a special date at the ashram, though.
    An eclipse is important, l think, because means going within by shutting off the external light so we can see the lnner Light. l had an experience involving an eclipse with SA some time ago.
    Funny you should mention Tratak. l’ve just taken up the practice to improve my subtle vision, like SA says it does. He used it Himself in His early sadhana, as you probably know. I was actually doing some tratak before l saw your post lol.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Nice to read your feedback on eclipse meditation if i may call it so. Sometimes I wonder why i have 0 capacity for subtle vision? as soon as i close my eyes, everything is gone…Really admire those who have like yourself.

      Talking of Tratak, it reminds me many years ago when i first did for 1 month for 3 hours a day and got amazing results. Mind got totally still like a mini Nirvana…unable to think anything at all….third eye opening in waking state …once i was watching a movie with a roomate…in between the movie i felt tremendous unease…i wasnt meditating or something…felt sudden rush to go back to my apartment..my room-mate said the movie just started…are u mad …going back now and wasting money….so i made an excuse to visit the restroom and fled from there to the apartment via a public taxi…on the way ….via the front glass of the taxi, i saw a thief running and crossing the street (not real, some vision) with eyes open…(when i close my eyes, i see no vision lol)…and guess what…when the taxi finally arrived, there was thief alarm ringing hard!! there had been some burglary…

      then used this tratak induced concentration to implant thoughts in people who are sleeping and just about to wake up…and influenced their decisions…people when they are about to take up from nights sleep are in the most fickle state…since they remember their last dreams vividly..so by knowing when a person would wake up, tried to meditate and implant the thought exactly at that time…so that upon waking , he would feel he saw a dream and he would mistake that thought to be his own!! and act accordingly ….eg…one guy said, he wants his girlfriend back…she is not responding to his emails..the last email was sent 7 months back….that guy also had some concentration ability….so we figured out when the girl usually wakes up and 1 hour prior to that we did that thing…and viola…next morning, the guy received her reply to his email sent 7 months back!! tried this later on other people and it worked if the subjects waking up from sleep was properly timed…of course the subject had full liberty to reject that “own” thought if he liked, in that case the experiment wouldnt give the material result…

      all these were done before the movie Inception was released…and when it did release, me and my friend (whose girlfriend was our subject),….laughed a lot…since Inception apparently stole our idea…difference being ours was a real practical idea,, and the movie was just some imagination for selling to get money 🙂 dream within a dream within a dream…comeon, we knew it wasnt possible..implanting an idea in disguise of a dream was possible…

      anyway would be interested in knowing more about ur experiences…adios.

      Reply
  28. mike

    lnteresting tratak experience. l don’t think l could do it 3 hours a day, though.

    ‘Sometimes I wonder why i have 0 capacity for subtle vision? as soon as i close my eyes, everything is gone…Really admire those who have like yourself.’

    Actually, that is subtle vision, just the objective kind – like in a lot of films where ppl see ghosts etc. Yours was clairvoyance at a distance. Mine is mostly subjective [within the mind-space], although it can happen anywhere with eyes open or shut.
    SA has written about the difference, which you’ve probably read.
    He says here:

    “Q – L told me that she had been in touch with the Mother long before she came here. She saw the Mother not only in meditation and vision, but in a waking state with open eyes. She also said that when she was in difficulty, Mother would appear and tell her what to do. Do not these experiences indicate an advanced sadhana?

    A – She has not related them to us. But there is nothing improbable in it. It means simply that she externalised her inner vision and experience so as to see through the physical eyes also, but it was the inner vision that saw and the inner hearing that heard, not the physical sight or hearing. That is common enough. It does not indicate an “advanced” sadhana, whatever that phrase may mean, but only a special faculty”

    Yes, the movie lnception was good. Even the main actress [ellen page] has the same birthday as the Mother – nice synchronicity lol.
    Your experiment with your friend’s girlfriend were interesting too. lf there’s still some vital attraction between them it makes it easier i suppose. lf they’e highly susceptible it might still happen, even if there’s no attraction – it’s how spells and mind-control work..
    l find that just after thinking about someone, l bump into them a day or two later. Been happening a lot lately. Usually, they just pop into my head without any interest from me and then, there they are like magic a short while after.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      Thanks for sharing the wonderful information (SA reply), didnt know it…I am a little scared person and prefer not to see ghosts or God lol…so let me admire subtle vision at a distance, for now 🙂

      “lf there’s still some vital attraction between them it makes it easier i suppose.” – agree fully…the guy was fully involved, the girl not so much…just that tratak helped to concentrate to give shape to the last dream she would see before waking and upon waking she wouldnt feel the dream was artificially planted/pushed on her subconscious! and she would think to reply to his email via the dream…she was of course fully free to accept or reject that dreams idea.

      Now allow me to share my opinion on Mother Meera (MM) which you had discussed few times…didnt know about her at all before that…Guess India has so many Gurus…its impossible to know about them all in one life time 🙂

      read a little about her…one old guy saw some vision of Divine Mother in her and all went crazy…with devotion…well….i think its all about honesty/sincerity…if someone constantly thinks about someone being Divine, then he enters automatically into a state of surrender where the object of his concentration appears God-like upon first physical meeting…the point we need to ask ourselves is, “Is my experience a result of my state of surrender or a result of force implanted by MM?” or to put it bluntly “Am I hallucinating?” LOL….

      Hallucinations have no real fruitful results and cannot solve real world problems…they are like opium….one gets experiences but cannot solve any thing…this world is Real…if one gets fever…its real….if one gets a super angry misunderstanding Boss in office who is always angry on us…that is real too…and all the other problems are real…hallucinations cannot solve any of these nor can opium…but spirituality can…thats the difference…Prefer to believe in spirituality that can be used to bring real world difference…a fake Guru cannot solve any real world problems…he or she can only give lecture…do this, dont do that bla bla bla…a dishonest believer drowned in devotion gets superstitious and starts hallucinating LOL…how do we know who is right? well, the real world is here to find out! all our Hindu scriptures contain countless tales of unbelievable feats which never had happened but people still believe them as true..! myself a devotee of Sri Krishna (SK) along with M and SA…but lifting the mountain with his little finger? Come on! so who wrote all these? the devotees who gave devotion more preference than Truth…or honesty or sincerity…

      likewise, all these devotees of MM need lot of soul searching to do..same with folks who reported great experiences while meditating with Chinmaya.. bring them a real problem…let them solve it…as M and SA and SK said, one should not run away from this world because the problems here appear to expose our inner difficulties and have to be solved right then and there with the Grace…and our effort in pulling of the Grace…

      people wonder can spirituality defeat corona virus? i say “have u first tried to solve your cough and cold or fever” using spiritual means? if No….then its like “oh i dont want to appear for the nursery exams, i shall appear directly for college” lol…all these things…sensations of cold or even a small thing like itching..or body pain…we need to apply all these concepts taught by SA and M and try to solve them… have been trying hard to overcome hunger at least a bit…failing miserably…lol…

      Reply
  29. mike

    Yes, sas, l agree with what you say about m.meera. l’m not sure if she’s a fake or not – more like self-deluded, especially when she claims to be working directly with M and SA in bringing the Supramental Light down.
    She visited the ashram years ago and some of the older sadhaks went to see her. Nolini said ‘this woman has a vital power’. So, she has that and l can verify from my own experience that she definitely has a power, but when Nolini says it’s a ‘vital power’, that’s enough for me. I had a lot of realistic dreams with her at one time, when l was taken in by her. l read most of the books by her followers who definitely are experiencing things through her. But this is where the danger comes in. l had to go through that phase and because of the high praise given to her by many sadhaks of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, l fell for her too [these sadhaks don’t seem to discriminate] She lives in germany, and after many years of silence she is now touring the world answering questions. lf you listen to her on youtube you’ll see how ignorant she is compared to SA and M. This is just my opinion based on what SA and M have said about vital guru’s. The Mother said just before She left, that there were around four women at the ashram all claiming to be lncarnations of the Divine Mother – l think MM might have been one.
    So, yes we have to be very careful. ln lndia there’s a guru around every corner. And we only have to read SA’s important letter [the lntermediate Zone]on how many have become trapped by the glamour of the vital [astral] planes. lt should be essential reading for every sadhak. Here’s a small portion with a link.

    “This is in fact an intermediary state, a zone of transition between the ordinary consciousness in mind and the true yoga knowledge. One may cross without hurt through it, perceiving at once or at an early stage its real nature and refusing to be detained by its half-lights and tempting but imperfect and often mixed and misleading experiences; one may go astray in it, follow false voices and mendacious guidance, and that ends in a spiritual disaster; or one may take up one’s abode in this intermediate zone, care to go no farther and build there some half-truth which one takes for the whole truth or become the instrument of the powers of these transitional planes, – that is what happens to many sadhaks and yogis. Overwhelmed by the first rush and sense of power of a supernormal condition, they get dazzled with a little light which seems to them a tremendous illumination or a touch of force which they mistake for the full Divine Force or at least a very great yoga Shakti; or they accept some intermediate Power (not always a Power of the Divine) as the Supreme and an intermediate consciousness as the supreme realisation. Very readily they come to think that they are in the full cosmic consciousness when it is only some front or small part of it or some larger Mind, Life-Power or subtle physical ranges with which they have entered into dynamic connection. Or they feel themselves to be in an entirely illumined consciousness, while in reality they are receiving imperfectly things from above through a partial illumination of some mental or vital plane”

    http://intyoga.online.fr/intzone.htm

    ls Chinmaya the big lndian organisation with over 300 centres worldwide? l’ve had no experience with them, but l think it originated through Sivananda [genuine guru imo]. God knows what it’s like now.

    l’ve always been attracted to Sri Krishna too. l tend to believe anythng is possible for the Divine. Some of these miraculous feats l might have to see with my own eyes though. lf you read yogananda’s book ‘Autobiography of a a Yogi’, it’s full of these incredible feats. Trailanga swami was disappearing all over the place. And, Christ said: “For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
    So, who knows lol.

    Yes, if you can’t cure a cold with Spiritual Force, you’ve got no chance against a global virus. l think the Mother cured spanish flu [which killed millions] in Her body, but how many can do that. Although, because the Supramental Power is now in physical matter, healing Spiritually should be easier, but only if we’re receptive.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      lf you listen to her on youtube you’ll see how ignorant she is compared to SA and M

      Yes she is very ignorant. She seems to be always in self denial.
      I feel one of the pivotal aspects of ones spirituality is humility. In this regard, Swami Mukundanand is a good example. His childlike humility towards his Guru strikes and its a sign of ones psychic being/soul waking up. A spiritually great person is also a great child. Innocent and pure and forever simple. Too simple for normal people’s standards. Eg Ramakrishna Das. His simplicity is evident in that youtube video.
      Tara Jauhar (Delhi Ashram) seems also to be a very sincere person. What about Sri Sri Ravi Shankar (Art of Living).. He seems more spiritually awakened than Sadhguru.

      Lets think about a hypothetical situation:

      In the Pondy ashram, someone in the archives plays a little mischief and prints stuff that M had said Chinmaya is the avatar of Vishu/SK etc etc. I guess many would say, “Yeah, I also felt like that” Lol…

      What is real independent experience and what is loaned experience, is a thin line. For when Mr Nolini says MM has a vital power, then it MUST be true. but I cant feel it. Obviously I am too naive to realise it. But what I feel is my current reality and I am entitled to say only that. If I say stuff which I have not yet experienced, that would be insincerity. Even if I “feel” MM has a vital power AFTER reading Mr Nolini’s comment on MM, then again may be I am influenced by his comments!

      Likewise there are many things which M and SA said which I have no clue about so I never speak about those things. Since they are beyond my present perception and hence not my reality but of course that doesnt make those things untrue!

      “lf you read yogananda’s book ‘Autobiography of a a Yogi’, it’s full of these incredible feats” –

      The problem is, these miracles are always housed in books! When you bring a neutral minded person infront their intensity stops! …I am not saying miracles dont happen. I myself saw someone having amazing powers of mind reading at will, future predicting etc but my point is, not all stories of miracles are true. Eg , a saint cured X of blindness. And his disciples write the saint cured 100s of people of blindness. Here the point is not whether the saint “could have” cured 100s of people or not but that he cured just one because that was the only opportunity he got! But people write all exaggerations.

      Swami Vishudhanand’s disciple wrote many miracles of his Guru like materializing jewels from Sunlight, creating fire from an arrow etc…can any one replicate these feats in front of a camera? I mean why not.. When the Muslim leaders attacked india 1000s of years ago, these people with supernatural feats could have really helped, if at all they existed! 1000s of temples, Hindu books were destroyed. People were converted and what not.

      Accounts of SA and M are extremely sincere compared to the rest. The way they talk about their failures, is unmatched in spiritual history. These simple things reveal how vast is their consciousness.

      Reply
  30. mike

    Yes sas, l agree, humility is an all-important quality [at least before the Divine]. Sri Ramakrishna was deeply humble before the Mother – but on the other hand He didn’t suffer fools gladly. He was always humble before great souls, like when He met Trailanga swami and called Him the ‘walking shiva’.
    Muktananda had great love for his guru as seen in his book – Play of Consciusness’. l don’t know what happened to him at the end when he became some kind of sex addict. Some say it was the psychological effect of his strokes and heart attacks.

    Your right, there is much naivety and gullibility about these things. lt’s how sai baba and m.meera and many others like osho have been able to attract millions. People experience some energy or see some light and automatically assume it has to be Divine. They don’t realise a lot of little vital [astral] beings can produce the same results. And it’s not just guru’s, l’ve seen many spiritualists claim that the spirits they’re seeing are actually angels. These vital beings can shapeshift into anything/anyone they like – even SA and .M
    Of course M would say, l think, that they need to have those experiences for their Psychic growth.

    ‘I cant feel it. Obviously I am too naive to realise it’

    l don’t think it’s all that difficult to feel m.meera’s energy. l had to write to her before l felt anything. But, l did feel it everytime l wrote – because a connection was created through the letters. There’s a difference between her energy and the Force from M and SA imo. They haven’t told me anything about her so l don’t really know who or what she is. Most of the older sadhaks rejected her, though.

    l’m not sure about sadguru. He looks the part, but a lot of these internet gurus don’t sit well with me.

    Yes, all these so-called miracles etc. have to be taken on faith [even when there might be hundreds of witnesses like with the catholic saint Padre Pio]. Even if it’s a first hand direct experience, we can still be deceived [as many are] unless we have the right guidance.

    What the islamic invasion of lndia [and most of europe] did was terrible. Hindu’s certainly weren’t following the Gita at that time. They became very tamasic, l think, possibly under a strong buddhist influence. Shraddalu said something about this in one of his videos. He said [when lndians finally rose up] that lt needed this islamic onslaught in order to wake them up. Otherwise lndia would have stayed a nation of monks. lt’s unlikely there was anyone like Krishna around then with the sort of Power that would’ve been needed. But, who’s to say there weren’t Divine Powers at work behind the veil who intervened at certain times, just like SA and M apparently did during WW2.
    Thank God for lndian warriors like Manikarnika: The Queen of Jhansi. l saw the movie recently – very good. l think M said she was one of Her previous incarnations.

    Reply
    1. Sas

      “Hindu’s certainly weren’t following the Gita at that time.”

      Its true and its also somewhat true that even now we arent following the Gita. Gita’s teachings are not for the faint hearted. It has been repeated many times that one should NEVER forsake ones karma. Running away from the worldly life is an act of cowardice. If the present day Gurus have any sort of power (I am pretty sure none has any power LOL), then they should feel ashamed now since they are helpless unable to save lives in this pandemic and otherwise claiming everyone an Avatar! All they do is, create one safe zone for them and their devotees and preach! Worldy life has to be lived in the spiritual way and every obstacle made a step towards perfection – that is the message of the Gita.

      Before the war, Krishna said to Arjuna many times to meditate on various Gods to gather Divine weapons which will be useful in the war. Arjuna did as instructed and the result was sure victory. Arjuna didnt use 90% of the divine weapons in the war since he wanted to make sure people dont say later on all the war was won by these Divine weapons alone.

      And Krishna didnt meet Arjuna for the first time in Kurushetra war! They were cousins and best of friends. SK never said to A , “go to the jungle and meditate. why worry about war? the Self is the main , rest everything is useless” LOL Krishna taught us via Gita and via the instructions given to Arjuna how we can take help of spirituality to solve the complex problems of life. Our soul decided to take birth in this wordily life and not in a saints house! Its precisely for this reason we need to focus on the problems of this world as it unfolds naturally to us.
      Thats why I have immense respect for Krishna and also for M and SA since they spent lot of time for the wordily problems using spiritual means.

      In this extremely tough times when innocent people are dying, we needed Gurus who have developed spiritual powers. Unfortunately there are NONE. I dont wish for spiritual experiences. Whatever comes as a result of solving complex wordily problems using spiritual means is welcome, rest can wait. SA and M repeated many times we need dynamic spirituality now. Gone are the days for static selfish spirituality which only benefits the seeker.

      I pray everyday to M to save us from this pandemic. OM Shanti. (peace)

      Reply

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